Journals of the Senate
54 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2005, Canada
Journals of the Senate
1st Session, 38th Parliament
Issue 83
Monday, July 18, 2005
6:00 p.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Biron, Buchanan, Callbeck, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Di Nino, Doody, Downe, Dyck, Eggleton, Fairbairn, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Furey, Grafstein, Gustafson, Harb, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Lapointe, Lavigne, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Meighen, Mercer, Merchant, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Murray, Nancy Ruth, Oliver, Pépin, Peterson, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Smith, Spivak, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Biron, Buchanan, Callbeck, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, *De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Downe, Dyck, Eggleton, Fairbairn, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Furey, Grafstein, Gustafson, Harb, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Lapointe, Lavigne, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Meighen, Mercer, Merchant, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Murray, Nancy Ruth, Oliver, Pépin, Peterson, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Smith, Spivak, *Stollery, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk
PRAYERS
The Senate observed a minute of silence in memory of the victims of the bombings that took place in London, UK, on July 7, 2005.
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some honourable senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Bacon presented the following:
Monday, July 18, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs has the honour to present its
ELEVENTH REPORT
Your Committee, to which was referred Bill C-2, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (protection of children and other vulnerable persons) and the Canada Evidence Act, has, in obedience to the Order of Reference of Monday, June 20, 2005, examined the said Bill and now reports the same without amendment but with observations, which are appended to this report.
Respectfully submitted,
LISE BACON
Chair
Observations to the Eleventh Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs
Protecting children from sexual abuse and exploitation has been a deep and abiding interest of your Committee. We therefore support the overall goals and methods of the Bill. We do, however, have some concerns with several of its details.
We have serious reservations about the broadened definition of child pornography and the reformulated defence. The new definition could lead to a conviction for a child pornography offence without there being any abuse of an actual person.
We are also concerned about the revised defence, which will permit art that has a "legitimate purpose,'' and "does not pose an undue risk of harm'' to minors. This new defence is vague and subjective; leading to uncertainty for artists and writers and a possible restraint on their creativity.
Your Committee is also concerned by the imposition of mandatory minimum punishments that apply to some of the offences against children. Such punishments infringe upon the full application of the principles of sentencing which have been stipulated by Parliament.
We also wish to point out that an important sentencing tool is lost when a minimum sentence is mandatory, particularly in cases when a conditional sentence might otherwise be considered. When a conditional sentence order is prescribed, section 742.3 of the Criminal Code permits a court to impose as a condition that an offender attends a treatment program. When a conditional sentence is not available (as when a minimum term of imprisonment must be imposed), an offender may accept, or may refuse to attend a treatment program under a probation order (section 732.1). Treatment programs seem particularly appropriate in connection with sex offences. Without them, an offender may leave prison unchanged such that the cycle of abuse may continue.
There is a need for more research in the area of child sexual abuse and exploitation. It is clear there is a need to know more about the risk factors for deviant behaviour so that we may intervene to prevent future harm. Specific mention was made about the lack of programs for men at risk of abusing children. We also need to know more about how to predict recidivism. In addition, we believe there is insufficient data available about the effectiveness of monitoring the behaviour of those under long-term supervision orders.
Assessing the effect of the mandatory minimum punishments in the Bill is also in order. We recommend that research in all of the foregoing areas be undertaken, so that it may be available for the five-year parliamentary review called for in the Bill.
Finally, in view of the importance of Bill C-2, and the fact that it contains a number of controversial provisions, we wish to review the Bill before five years have elapsed. Such a study will serve as an early warning system should we discover difficulties with the Bill. It will also allow us to assess whether the research projects we have recommended are sufficiently advanced so that the prescribed parliamentary review can be undertaken with the best possible evidence.
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Bacon, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, presented its twelfth report (Bill C-38, An Act respecting certain aspects of legal capacity for marriage for civil purposes, without amendment).
The Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bacon, that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Keon, Deputy Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, presented its twelfth report (Bill C-23, An Act to establish the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development and to amend and repeal certain related Acts, without amendment).
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Keon, Deputy Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, presented its thirteenth report (Bill C-22, An Act to establish the Department of Social Development and to amend and repeal certain related Acts, without amendment).
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Oliver, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance, presented its sixteenth report (Bill C-48, An Act to authorize the Minister of Finance to make certain payments, without amendment but with observations).
(The report is printed as an appendix)
The Honourable Senator Eggleton, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Smith, P.C., that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS
Pursuant to rule 25(2), the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., tabled the following:
Reply to Question No. 12, dated June 1, 2005, appearing on the Order Paper and Notice Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Downe, respecting Iraqi Nationals working for the Saddam Hussein government in Canada.—Sessional Paper No. 1/38-643S.
Reply to Question No. 14, dated June 21, 2005, appearing on the Order Paper and Notice Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Downe, respecting the Service Canada Initiative announced in the 2005 Federal Budget.—Sessional Paper No. 1/38-644S.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Baker, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Eggleton, P.C., for the third reading of Bill S-37, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Cultural Property Export and Import Act.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The bill was then read the third time and passed.
Ordered, That the Clerk do go down to the House of Commons and acquaint that House that the Senate has passed this bill, to which it desires its concurrence.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Mitchell, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cowan, for the third reading of Bill S-38, An Act respecting the implementation of international trade commitments by Canada regarding spirit drinks of foreign countries, as amended.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The bill was then read the third time and passed, as amended.
Ordered, That the Clerk do go down to the House of Commons and acquaint that House that the Senate has passed this bill, to which it desires its concurrence.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Cochrane, seconded by the Honourable Senator Andreychuk, for the third reading of Bill S-12, An Act concerning personal watercraft in navigable waters.
The Honourable Senator Plamondon moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that the debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Banks, seconded by the Honourable Senator Corbin, for the second reading of Bill S-6, An Act to amend the Canada Transportation Act (running rights for carriage of grain).
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 4 and 5 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Tkachuk, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton, for the second reading of Bill S-35, An Act to amend the State Immunity Act and the Criminal Code (terrorist activity).
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 7 and 8 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Nolin, seconded by the Honourable Senator Andreychuk, for the second reading of Bill S-23, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act (modernization of employment and labour relations).
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Stratton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton that Bill S- 23, be not now read a second time, but that the subject matter thereof be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs; and
That the Order to resume debate on the motion for the second reading of the bill remain on the Order Paper and Notice Paper.
The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted.
Orders No. 10 to 12 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Corbin, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poulin, that the sixth report of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, entitled French-Language Education in a Minority Setting: A Continuum from Early Childhood to the Postsecondary Level, tabled in the Senate on June 14, 2005, be adopted and that, pursuant to rule 131(2), the Senate request a complete and detailed response from the government, with the Minister of Canadian Heritage, the Minister of Social Development, the Minister of Justice and the Minister responsible for Official Languages being identified as Ministers responsible for responding to the report.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Resuming debate on the consideration of the twelfth report of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence, entitled: Borderline Insecure, tabled in the Senate on June 14, 2005.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that further debate on the consideration of the report be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted, on division.
Consideration of the eighth report (second interim) of the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources, entitled: Sustainable Development: It's Time to Walk the Talk, tabled in the Senate on June 14, 2005.
The Honourable Senator Banks moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moore, that the report be adopted.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 5 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Orders No. 24 (inquiry), 120 (motion), 18 (inquiry), 113 (motion), 6, 23, 2, 25, 17, 26, 11, 15 (inquiries), 91 (motion), 4, 21, 22 (inquiries), 78 (motion), 14, 20 (inquiries) and 69 (motion) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
MOTIONS
The Honourable Senator Andreychuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton:
That the Senate of Canada join with the House of Commons, in recommending that the term of John Reid, the Information Commissioner of Canada, be extended by an additional year effective from July 1, 2005.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 8:25 p.m. the Senate was continued until 2 p.m. tomorrow.)
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs
The name of the Honourable Senator Banks substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Mitchell (July 6).
The names of the Honourable Senators Eyton and St. Germain substituted for those of the Honourable Senators St. Germain and Andreychuk (July 13).
The names of the Honourable Senators Mercer and Sibbeston substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Chaput and Mitchell (July 14).
Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology
The name of the Honourable Senator Stratton substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Johnson (July 6).
Standing Senate Committee on National Finance
The names of the Honourable Senators Maheu and Trenholme Counsell substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Ringuette and Mitchell (July 7).
The name of the Honourable Senator Ringuette substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Maheu (July 11).
The names of the Honourable Senators Banks, Downe, and Banks substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Downe, Banks and Downe (July 12).
The name of the Honourable Senator Downe substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Banks (July 13).
The names of the Honourable Senators Biron, Ferretti Barth and Mitchell substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Eggleton, Cowan and Trenholme Counsell (July 14).